R-L21 South Irish


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What is our project? The R-L21 South Irish Project was created to identify the specific unique SNP's that characterize the cluster, as well as match family histories to their mutation from the South Irish haplogroup. The original markers of the South Irish were identified by Dr. Kenneth Nordvedt

The age of the South Irish cluster is:

1640 ybp +/- 233 years according to Alex Williamson

1400 ybp +/- 190 years according to Anatole Klyosov

"I think it particularly valuable in that I have the suspicion Ireland was peopled multiple times, with the flows into the island centuries if not millennia apart in time.  So these different clades within R1b..... found in Ireland, along with the smaller haplogroup I clades found in Ireland may be expressions of these multiple immigrations". 
 
                                      Dr. Ken Nordvedt 3/15/2011                

Our work will focus on understanding all the haplogroups of Eoganacht surnamed descendants (to understand the many origins of those who called themselves the Eoganachts) with a concentration on the South Irish. 

Kathleen Sullivan Kerwin, administrator

Who is eligible to join: Close GD to South Irish, Ysearch Z9HCX, and Dr. Nordvedt's baseline: 391=10, 385b=15, 439=11, 447=24, 456=15, 442=13, 635=24(a.k.a. GATA-C4, a non-FTDNA marker) 390=24, 458=17, 449=29, H4=11, 565=11 

You do not have to be a member of a particular lab to join

STR Analysis: We use str haplogroup analysis along with Deep Clade and SNP testing to determine a member's haplogroup.  STR haplogroup analysis is based on theory and may be used to predict Deep Clade or SNP grouping, however only Deep Clade or SNP testing can confirm a members haplogroup.  DNA results less than 67 markers are inaccurate.  If you wish to improve the accuracy of your predictive results, upgrade to at least 67 markers.

How will this project identify the South Irish?

South Irish Project

Donors that have been tested for 58 markers (multi-allele version of 67 markers) and a GD

  • less than or equal to 10 GD of the 58 marker South Irish and
  • less than or equal to 3 GD of Dr. Nordvedt's 12 marker South Irish
We're using a decision tree based on slow moving markers to find families based on their MRCA then adding the fast moving markers to identify branches (not sure how to handle the medium markers).  This information will then be applied when the unique South Irish SNP is found (and test donors take this SNP test) with adjustments made to testing criteria and conclusions as necessary.

Surnames included (not an inclusive list, surname list in progress – please send us a list of surnames to add):

Cahalane, Connelly, Hayes, Lynch, MacAuliffe, MacCarthy, McCarthy, McCarty, MacGillicudy, Mongan,O'Bogue, O'Callaghan, O'Cannifree, O'Cohalane/O'Coughlan, O'Connell, O'Cronin, O'Dennehy, O'Donnell, O'Donoghue, O'Duggan, O'Feehan, O'Flahiffe, O'Flynn, O'Keefe, O'Kirby, O'Leary, O'Long, O'Mahoney, O'Moriarty, O'Neill, Sullivan

ClanCAREY surnames (e.g., Carey, Cary, Carry, Carrie, Carew, Kerry,Kery, Kerrie, Kerey and the Ancient Spellings of O'Chairda and O'Cairdha)

O'Donoghue, Donaghoe, Donoughe, Donaho, Donahoe, Donough, Donahue, Donahow, Doneghoe, Donehue, Donighue, Donoho, Donohoe, Donahugh, Donohough,Donohow, Donohue, Donaughue, Donaghie, Donaghy ...

Bryan, Burns, Clary, Givens, Irwin, McKenna, O'Shea, Reagan, Desmond, Hughey, Fitzgerald, O'Connor, McRay, O'Keefe, McLennan, Mihigan, Hennessey, Towey, O'Kane, Coghlan, Allen, Seal, Kelly, Kenty

Related projects:
FTDNA South Irish Project
FTDNA Eoganacht sept Project
Eo'ganacht septs Project

What's New:

The size of our results lists are quite large at this point so that updates will be published less often with much more detail.  Current Research:

  • results (haplogroup and close matches):
  • methodology for case studies
    • MCRA - determining mutation rates
    • Building phylogenetic trees
    • Building family trees and branches

updated May 2, 2011: Insight into SNP testing by Alex Williamson

"SNPs are rare.  There is nothing special about when they occur.  Just one man in history acquires a mutation his father didn't have.  He doesn't have to go on to found any great clusters, etc.  A SNP may occur before an STR cluster, and include slightly more than we might "want", or it may occur inside a cluster, and include less than what we "want".  That many of the SNPs we found so far just happen to fit exactly with an STR cluster, isn't because of a special relationship between clusters and SNPs, instead, it is because of something special about the real world history of many of the clusters we've identified so far.

I have no doubt that a SNP corresponding to the bulk of the South Irish will be found.  As far as I know, only a small fraction of the Y-chromosome has been carefully examined for SNPs thus far.  New tests are always being developed to look at more and more of the Y.  It is just a matter of having the right spot examined to find your SNP.  It just hasn't happened yet.

There aren't necessarily any good or bad candidates.  Ideally, all of your South Irish men will either have the SNP or they won't.  It is possible as I've alluded to above that you might find a SNP that will include only a fraction of your South Irish men, or perhaps it will include a larger piece of R-L21 which includes the South Irish.  The Scots cluster is a very large R-L21 cluster, and it doesn't have an associated SNP yet, despite attempts to find one.  Recently a SNP has been found which looks to identify a part of the Scots cluster, but not all of it.

There is no reason why one hasn't been found for the South Irish men yet.  Many men have tried to find SNPs for various groups, some found them, most did not.  There is a lot of Y-DNA however, so there is still plenty of potential for the future.  What you need to do is keep trying.  Don't try right away though, give some time for new tests to be developed, then try again.  Eventually it will just happen."

 

 Copyright 2009
For problems or questions regarding this Web site contact kathleen@southirish
Last updated: 08/07/12.